Interview: Writing Crimson and Clover with Chris Pink and Jonathan BEtchtel
While they often say the stories write themselves, Chris Pink and Jonathan Betchtel put endless hours into creating the most beloved, hilarious, and ridiculously charming Can Can shows from mere paper-bound ideas.
With a creative partnership spanning over 18 years, plus a sense of limitless silliness, an impressively deep-cut trove of inspirations, and the fine-tuned ability to value authenticity and not take oneself too seriously all at once, these two have found a collaborative process that is truly unmatched.
And, with how devilishly delightful Crimson and Clover is, it’s undoubtedly a process that just keeps getting better and better.
Dive into Pink and Betchtel’s creative minds, as they give us a peek behind the curtain and into writing a Can Can show.
THECANCAN.COM: Do you two have a particular writing process when it comes to creating Can Can shows together?
Jonathan Betchtel: I think where Chris and I really thrive is in our shared belief that there are no bad ideas. We're both pretty willing to look foolish in front of the other. We're able to just say everything that pops into our heads, and 95% of it is just – well, it’s bad. Jonathan laughs. But, we get to weed through everything, and we get to play a lot. A lot of our process is just out-loud dialogue. I'm sure Fae and Chris's kids are tired of hearing us read aloud in their dining room.
Chris Pink: Our process is also built on 18 years of trust. We've been working together for so long. I'm such a private and insular and introverted person, yet I live in a very extroverted world. Particularly when it comes to creation and art, I generally work in a more isolated context. Like, one other person at a time is the most I can handle as far as working through things, being creatively vulnerable, and, as Johnny said, just saying stupid shit. Johnny and I have that relationship where there is no limitation to the stupidity that we are willing to spit out to one another, and, for me, that’s really the only way I can work. Once you start creating limitations, and once there's any fear or insecurity, then you lose your ability to fully expose ideas that are just waiting to be plucked from the universe.
THECANCAN.COM: Audiences may recognize the name "El Dorado" from quite a way back in Can Can lore. Can you talk about the transformation Crimson and Clover has undergone from its previous iteration?
Chris Pink: We loved El Dorado, and the audiences seemed to love it, too. It sold well. At the time, the show worked really well as a summertime, lighthearted, fun performance.
[Speaking to Jonathan] Was I the only one that wanted to redo it? Chris laughs. I’m not sure if I was the only one that wanted to redo it, but I know we go through these creative endeavors where it can be hard to revisit a show we've done before. We have a tendency to want to push forward and grow, and sometimes doing a show that we've done before doesn't allow for as much creative freedom or inspiration for new ideas because you're locked into the old thing.
But, I just love the music, the choreography, and all the visual elements. I thought it was just such a fun show. At this moment, with everything that’s going on in the world, I thought that it would be fun to do a lighthearted show.
Fast forward to last year when we officially decided to do the show, we had some pretty major cast changes. The folks that are available in our ecosystem can often dictate the shows that we do and are able to do, and the folks that were available for this particular show–and also the fact that we have never done a queer love story–were the driving factors in renovating the show and doing a whole new version of it. We were able to keep some of the primary elements from a music perspective, but add new music elements, add new visual context, add new cast, and write a full, new script. We really got the best of both worlds by being able to do a show that we had a foundation for, as well as have a new creative approach, which ended up becoming Crimson and Clover.
Jonathan Betchtel: We're all creatives when it comes to making these shows. So, when we sometimes use an old show as a launching point, there is a fear of being stagnant or regurgitating the same idea all over again. It was fun to take the magic of El Dorado and recreate it for a whole new cast and a whole new story.
THECANCAN.COM: What were some sources of inspiration for this show? Were there any films, shows, or songs that sparked the Crimson and Clover story?
Chris Pink: Wow, that's a deep dive for me. Initially, it just began as an idea of doing a Western show, something “all American” and deeply rooted in that kind of Americana aesthetic while also being the exact opposite. So, we had this trajectory of having this all-American thing and juxtaposed with a non-American thing, like Spaghetti Westerns, old Clint Eastwood movies, Ennio Morricone music, and these very European takes on American film, all tied together with some ridiculous, comedic elements, like Reno 911. We proudly don’t take ourselves too seriously.
Jonathan Betchtel: Chris and I are a combination of influences, and it’s really fun. I feel like Chris’s cinematography background is really limited to, like, three movies. Jonathan and Chris laugh. As opposed to your hugely influential history opera and music, where I grew up watching dumb movies like Tommy Boy. That whole buddy-buddy, really stupid adventure comedy is what I grew up on. So, I love trying to recreate that in the dynamics I have on stage. I think Tori and I have a really similar taste in humor-based characters. It's really fun because she gets to be the deputy to my sheriff, and it's just so great to see that silly influence in the interactions and creation process.
THECANCAN.COM: We're so excited to see an LGBTQIA+ love story! Can you speak about how important it is to have this representation on Can Can's stage?
Jonathan Betchtel: Since Can Can’s conception, we've prided ourselves on creating a safe, loving, and fun place for every single person that walks in. It doesn't matter where you're from, what you are, who you are, or who you love. While we love being silly and ridiculous, it is important to us to still be authentic in our storytelling. When you go into a production with the sole intention of making it queer or avant-garde, it loses its authenticity surrounding the love.
If I'm being completely truthful, the story of Crimson and Clover came about in my mind purely because those two humans, Tori and Jasmine, are wildly talented. Between the singing chops and the acting ability that they share, they were just the right pick for this love story. For me, it was less about trying to make some point rather than letting the story and chemistry write itself.
Chris Pink: Once we knew our creative elements, and once we made the decision for the two characters to be the primary love interests, everything else in the writing process came naturally. It didn't ever feel contrived. It never felt like we were pushing an agenda; it was just 100% natural. And, we’re kind of getting back to what we were talking about earlier, we just don’t leave any ideas off the table. It was fun to look at El Dorado and the love story that it told and have it magically write itself into Crimson and Clover with two completely different characters that happened to be the same gender. It just worked beautifully, and, from our perspective and creation process, it felt both so organic and so refreshing.
Also, in addition to that, in our community, I feel like there are very few shows that are fully invested in telling a queer love story. We have the more creative and expressive performance of drag shows, but more narrative content feels a bit rare. In my mind, that makes this particular story and what's happening in the show even a little bit more precious in that way.
THECANCAN.COM: What is each of your favorite numbers from the show, or perhaps a moment you're excited for audiences to experience?
Chris Pink: That's a tough one because I get so attached to everything. I love different moments for different reasons. Some moments I love because of the comedic elements, other moments I love because of the choreography, and other moments I love because of the music.
It's hard to decipher which moment is my favorite, but I would say that there are two moments I find particularly interesting from an artistic perspective. I really like the dialogue, dance, and visual elements of the jail sequence, as well as the big montage numbers that are these multilayered, big ballad moments. They are just so powerful, so funny, and so overtly ridiculous that maybe they shouldn't exist. But, they do! And because they do, they're so fun to watch.
Jonathan Betchtel: I get to experience every moment every night on stage. But, there are actually a lot of moments where I'm backstage, and I just get to listen to the audience react. I think one of my favorite ones is when Clover and Crimson both agree that they don't belong together. It's right before Jasmine brings down the house. Hearing the audience all say, “Aww,” and get sad all at once is just spectacular because, at that moment, you realize that everyone has truly bought into the world for the last hour and 15 minutes. That moment's just really special.
Another moment I love is when the curtain opens during “Pony.” The reaction from the audience is spectacular when Travis and I are up on that horse, and everyone realizes what's about to happen. It's pretty outrageous, and I love it. I love it.
Oh, and when Daisy says “f!@# face” is a highlight for me because it just cracks me up every time.
Chris Pink: It's so punctuated and perfect.
Jonathan Betchtel: It's one of those little moments where you can just tell that the audience is fully buying into the world we’ve created. It's spectacular.